South Sudan News Agency

October 19, 2010 (SSNA) -- Sudan's finance Minister was interviewed by a London based news paper, Asharq Al-Awsat. Read the full text of the interview bellow:

Asharq Al-Awsat Q & A with Sudan's Finance Minister Ali Mahmoud

By Mohammad Ali Salih

Q) Will the South vote for secession in next January's referendum, or will Sudan remain a unified country?

A) We, as the President announced, are committed to two main aspects regarding the upcoming referendum, which form the basis of the 2005 Comprehensive Peace Agreement. Firstly: to hold the referendum on a set date and to acknowledge the results. Secondly: The referendum should be free and fair. We pray to Almighty God that Sudan will not be divided, and that it remains a unified country. However, there is a possibility that secession might be the outcome, which poses many significant, potential problems. Of course, as you might have heard, some Southern leaders have begun to talk recently about the secession. Furthermore, Uganda has been outspoken in its endorsement of Southern secession, and the possibility of intervening to protect the newborn Southern state. We don't want to go to war, and we don't want foreign intervention, neither in the south nor in the north.

Q) In your opinion, why did some Southern leaders change their mind and begin calling for secession?

A) They are extremists; we believe the majority of the Southerners, if the referendum is held freely and fairly, would vote for unification because we are brothers who have lived together on the land of a unified Sudan, for hundreds of years. Problems and civil wars occur in any country, but those who call for secession are extremists. The Sudanese Oil Minister, Lual Deng, who is a Southern unionist, has referred to the extremist Southerners as "The Taliban of South Sudan", as a joke.

Q) Yet the possibility of secession exists?

A) We pray to Almighty God that it doesn't happen. If it does, we hope it will be peaceful. As I just said, we and the Southerners have lived together like brothers throughout Sudan's history, and we are bonded together by multiple factors: family, patriotism, collective struggle, social and economic issues. Although the American media focuses on the oil issue, oil is not the foundation of our relationship with the South, and it never will be.

If the South votes for secession, it is imperative that our shared social and family relations are maintained. This goes for the commercial relations too, because the South’s only route for exporting oil would be to the North, through the seaport of Port Sudan. If the oil wells are destroyed, both the Northerners and the Southerners would lose. We will try and assist them in a wide range of domains, introduce them to the international community, and encourage tourism and investment in their newly established state.

Q) Was there any possibility of avoiding reaching such a point of division in Sudan?

A) Many Southern leaders maintain that the National Congress Party is responsible, because it has failed to make the idea of a unified Sudan attractive to the South.

Well, what did those [Southern] leaders offer to make the idea of a unified Sudan appealing? Why, since the very first day of concluding the 2005 peace agreement, have they worked to transform the South into a separate state? Why have they stopped all economic transactions with the government of Sudan, and headed toward Uganda and Kenya?

Q) [Southern leaders] argued that the National Congress Party (NCP) focused on implementing the Islamic Shariaa Law [instead of national unity], and the NCP would not rule out the idea of dividing Sudan, in return for implementing the Shariaa?

A) We did not impose the Shariaa on anyone. We said that every state and province was free to apply the laws it deemed appropriate. If they want, they can build mosques beside public bars in the South. However, there are others who want to build mosques, without bars nearby.

Q) [Southern leaders] said the Northerners were practicing racial discrimination against them?

A) Racial discrimination? How come? The First Vice President of Sudan is a southerner. The Minister of Presidential Affairs is a southerner too, and so is the Oil Minister. Furthermore, the southerners rule the South independently without a single northerner in their government, yet they participate in the governance of the North as well.

Q) Vice President of the Democratic Unionist Party (in opposition to the NCP), Ali Mahmud Hassanein, recently told Asharq al-Awsat that the ruling National Congress Party should be held accountable for the potential division of Sudan, because ever since it came to power in 1989, following a military coup, it acknowledged the right to self-determination for the South?

A) I will answer this question in two parts: Firstly, we advocate the freedom of the Southerners more than any other northern party, and maybe even more than any southern party. How could we govern a group of people who don't want us to govern them? Opposition parties repeatedly talk about freedom and democracy. What about freedom for the southerners? We are proud to be the first party to have agreed to grant the southerners their right to self-determination.

Secondly, didn't the opposition parties agree to the southerners’ right to self-determination in the 1995 Asmara Agreement? Did they forget the years of the National Democratic Alliance (NDA), and the collaboration with the SPLM? Did they forget the concessions they had made to the SPLM? Now that the SPLM has broken away from them, after exploiting the NDA and achieving its goals, opposition parties want to lay the blame on the National Congress Party, which from the very start, with good intentions and without political maneuvering, agreed to the right to self determination for the Southerners. I say this and add that it was no coincidence that the SPLM signed a peace agreement with the National Congress Party in 2005, and not with the opposition parties. The SPLM must have trusted us more than them.

Q) How do you see the future?

A) As I told you, we sincerely pray to Almighty God that Sudan, the land of our fathers and grandfathers, northerners and southerners, will not be divided. And because we committed ourselves to conducting the referendum, we will accept its results provided that it is free, fair and expressive of the opinion of the ordinary Southern citizens who, as I said, want to continue to live in unity with us. We have been their brothers and fellow citizens for hundreds of years, long before the discovery of oil in the South. The Ugandans and Kenyans want to cheat the Southerners out of their oil wealth. They have neither respect nor appreciation for them.

Q) What is the purpose of your visit to Washington? And what did you achieve?

A) Our purpose was to attend the World Bank annual meetings. For the first time in many years, we have made a considerable improvement in Sudan's relations with the World Bank. We have agreed to hold a series of round table conferences to offer aid to Sudan, and examine ways of paying off its external debt. The first round table conference was held during the World Bank sessions. In that conference, World Bank Vice President for Africa, Obiageli Ezekwesili, a Nigerian national, admitted that not only the South needed the support of the World Bank, but also the North.

Soon, a round table conference and a number of workshops will be held to study development projects all across Sudan, not only in the South. The conference will be attended by top representatives. In addition to the World Bank, member states and large investment corporations will take part.

Q) What will happen to Sudan's foreign debts, which have bordered on 40 billion dollars according to International Monetary Fund statistics?

A) As I just said, the subject will be discussed at the upcoming round table conference. The World Bank Vice President for Africa said that Sudan's foreign debt was a ‘difficult issue’ that concerned the entire Sudanese people, northerners and southerners alike, regardless of the political developments in Sudan, and the issue of southern secession.

Q) What will happen to Sudan's foreign debt if the South secedes?

A) Again, this will be discussed at the round table conference.

Q) Some Southern leaders declared that the South would not pay any of the country's foreign debt, because they allege that successive governments of the North borrowed and accumulated the debt, building bridges and factories in the North, and purchasing arms to launch attacks against the Southerners.

A) I repeat, we are going to discuss the division of debts at the round table conference. We talked with the World Bank and stipulated that the issue be resolved before holding the referendum in the South.

Q) If the South secedes, will you request dividing the debts according to population, for example?

A) Whether or not the South secedes, we will request that Sudan be exempted of all its foreign debts. Sudanese Vice President Ali Osman Taha indicated this while delivering Sudan's address, at the United Nations general assembly last month. Taha noted that Sudan ought to be treated in the manner of the least developed countries, and have the principle of debt exemption applied to it.

Q) What role did the US play in improving Sudan's relation with the World Bank?

A) The US representative in the World Bank presented initiatives to boost cooperation with Sudan. We believe that the US administration has recently been convinced that President Omar al-Bashir’s government is committed to implementing the 2005 peace agreement between the North and the South. Actually, al-Bashir's government has met all terms of the agreement, unlike the southern government, which has only met part of them. All that remains is the referendum, and President al-Bashir has reiterated many times that we are committed to its implementation, and the recognition of its findings.

Q) To what extent would the oil revenues of the Ministry of Finance suffer if the South secedes?

A) We would lose 70 percent of our share of the oil reserves, and 50 percent of our share of the oil revenues. We hope, and pray to God, that Sudan will not be divided. But this is what would happen if the South secedes.

Q) What would you do if Sudan is divided, and you stood to lose all those revenues?

A) Firstly, oil is not a matter of life and death. We lived before the discovery the oil in our land, and we will be able to live even if we lose a considerable portion of our oil revenues.

Secondly, oil has been discovered in northern Sudan. We hope that this will offset the loss of the oil fields in the South.

Thirdly, we have started introducing the policy of reducing imports, increasing custom taxes and economizing government expenditure.

Q) What are these government actions?

A) When President al-Bashir appointed me as Minister of Finance, I conducted a study regarding Sudan’s exports and imports. I found out that we import over 9 billion dollars worth of goods every year: about one billion dollars for vehicles, around two billion dollars for wheat, 100 million dollars for oil, and about the same amount for furniture, fruits, children toys and other luxury imports.

According to my new policy, we must reduce luxury imports. Consequently, I have already ordered to cease imports of second-hand cars, because in the long run, a used car is a burden on its owner and the country’s economy. Furthermore, I have talked to the Sudanese about going back to the old Sudanese traditions of eating, beside wheat, “dura” (sorghum) and “dokhon” (millet), and making “kisra’ (bread sheets from sorghum).

By Mohammad Ali Salih

October 9, 2010 (SSNA) -- A prominent Sudanese opposition leader, currently touring the US, predicted yesterday that if Southern Sudan chooses independence in the scheduled January referendum, Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir will order his troops to occupy the oil fields in the South.

Ali Mahmoud Hassanein, Deputy Chairman of the Unionist Democratic Party (UDP), a leading political party in the Sudan, in an interview with Asharq Al-Awsat in Washington, launched a fiery attack on al-Bashir, describing him as “a dictator and a criminal.”

Hassanein denied seeking US help – official or private – to topple al-Bashir, as some of his critics have claimed. However, he agreed with some US groups that al-Bashir should surrender to the International Criminal Court (ICC), which has accused him of committing war crimes and genocide in Darfur, western Sudan.

The following is the full text of the interview:

[Asharq Al-Awsat] What is the purpose of your visit to the US?

[Hassanein] I am currently living in Britain, and from there I started a campaign to establish a broad coalition whose primary objective is to topple the government of Omar al-Bashir. We believe that al-Bashir is a dictator and a criminal. This is a front that brings together all Sudanese, regardless of their past or present political affiliations. During the third week of this month, we will convene a comprehensive conference in London to develop a specific program with specific objectives. I have toured parts of Britain, and I am currently here in the US to gain support for this new front.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Are you planning to ask the US government for help or American private organizations?

[Hassanein] No. We only depend on the Sudanese. This is a Sudanese movement and we want to distance it from any foreign influence.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Certain groups in Washington have been calling for the arrest of President al-Bashir, following the arrest warrant issued against him by the International Criminal Court (ICC) for genocide and crimes against humanity. This seems similar to your mandate. Are you intending to cooperate with these groups, on this issue at least?

[Hassanein] Of course, so long as we want al-Bashir to stand trial, we support those who support this. However these are details that will be discussed in the forthcoming general conference that will take place in London. The conference will begin by choosing a name for our movement, and then we will confirm its objectives, tools, and details.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] You are the Deputy Chairman of the Unionist Democratic Party (UDP), whose religious and political leader, Sayed Mohammad Osman al-Mirghani, is cooperating with al-Bashir. What does al-Mirghani think about your campaign against al-Bashir?

[Hassanein] I have disagreed with al-Mirghani on this subject and I disagree with him now, and I say this publicly. I disagree with the unfortunate situation that the political parties in Sudan have reached. Now here I am declaring my opposition to his cooperation with al-Bashir. One of the reasons for establishing our movement was our belief that the traditional Sudanese political parties have failed to reflect the aspirations of the Sudanese people. They have been inflicted by inept leadership, and have been dominated by certain families. This doesn’t just apply to the UDP, but all other traditional political parties as well.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Recently, leaders from your own party, the UDP, have called for your resignation because of your stance on the ICC, which is contrary to the UDP position. What is your opinion of this?

[Hassanein] Why would I resign from a party that I have supported all my life? Why would I leave the oldest and most significant party, in the history of Sudan? I am a Unionist, I always have been, and I will die a Unionist.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Some leaders in the ruling party, the National Congress Party (NCP), have criticized you for leading a Sudanese political movement from outside Sudan – conducting your operations from Britain and America – likening this to "hotel activism." What is your response to this?

[Hassanein] Last year, I was in Sudan and was arrested by al-Bashir’s security forces. This was not only because of my deep-rooted opposition to the regime, but also because of my stand on the ICC. Before I was released, I was visited by senior security officials who, in a clear and direct manner, threatened to kill me if I continued my political stand. Therefore, some of my friends and relatives advised me to leave Sudan, and that is why I am now living in London.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Why are you calling for al-Bashir to surrender to the ICC?

[Hassanein] Firstly, he committed war crimes and genocide in Darfur.

Secondly, the Sudanese judicial system is controlled by al-Bashir. How can this system try him at all, let alone fairly?

Thirdly, there are three separate branches of government in Sudan; executive, legislative and judiciary. But these three branches, and the whole country in general, are controlled by a network of security and intelligence agencies.

Finally, the Sudanese constitution calls for the trial of the president only in the case of high treason, and not for genocide or war crimes. In that respect, we believe that al-Bashir is acting in accordance with a constitution that he and his advisers wrote themselves.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Recently, the US has decreased its pressure on al-Bashir, and last week President Barack Obama, attending an UN-sponsored conference on Sudan, implied that the relationship between the two countries is improving. Would you describe this as being unhelpful to your campaign against al-Bashir?

[Hassanein] How can the US offer concessions to al-Bashir, whilst he is captive [to US sanctions] at the same time? The US is imposing punishments on al-Bashir, and not vice-versa. The US has been sanctioning al-Bashir ever since he came to power (1989), when he declared his “Islamic Civilization Project”. This clearly endangered US interests in the region, and the entire world. After the Comprehensive Peace Agreement (CPA) in 2005, which was sponsored by the US, it became clear that the US wanted Southern Sudan to secede. So, now as the referendum in the South is getting closer and closer, the US, as expected, is appeasing al-Bashir so that he will not endanger the new state in the South. But, I believe this appeasement is temporary.

Also, don’t forget that the US didn’t declare the last general elections in Sudan (last April) illegal and unacceptable, although they claimed the elections were not free and fair. Why? Because the US is interested in appeasing al-Bashir, for the sake of the South's secession.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Do Sudan’s Islamists want the South to secede?

[Hassanein] I will give you two examples:

Firstly, recently “Rabitat Ulama’a Alsudan” (Sudan’s Islamic Scholars Association) issued a statement; not regarding a united or divided Sudan, but claiming that the leaders of Sudan’s Peoples Liberation Movement (SPLM) are infidels. The statement called on the Muslims not to cooperate with them, eat with them, sell to them, buy from them or rent houses to them.

Secondly, also recently, “Jama’at Ansar Alsunna” (Followers of the Sunnah) issued a statement; again not regarding free and fair elections, or referendums, but stating that the idea of elections and a referendum was, basically, secular, Western, and non-Islamic. If it was inevitable that elections were to be held, they should exclude women, seculars and non-Muslims. Anyone who rejects this should be considered an ‘infidel’, and war should be declared upon them.

So, these two examples highlight the extreme Islamic beliefs of these people.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Does al-Bashir himself support the secession of the South?

[Hassanein] Before he came to power (1989), when his mentor, Dr. Hassan al-Turabi, cooperated with the military government of President Jafar Nimeiri (1969-1985), al-Turabi declared that the Islamists’ fundamental and main goal was a Sudan ruled by Islamic Sharia [law]. They encouraged Nimeiri to declare Sharia laws, and after Nimeiri was toppled, during the second democratic era (1985-1989), the Islamists participated in negotiations between the Northerners and Southerners. However, all the Islamists talked about was [Islamic] Sharia law.

In 1989, all the Northern political parties agreed to hold a conference, which was designed to include the Southerners, with the intention of agreeing a ceasefire. However, before the conference date, al-Bashir led a military coup (1989) that took over the country. He dissolved all political parties, and declared Jihad on our Southern brothers. In 1992, in Frankfurt, Germany, al-Bashir’s representatives, and Southern leaders, signed an agreement stipulating a ceasefire, and the self-determination of the South.

So, it has been clear throughout the years, that the Islamists have not been interested in Sudan’s unity. Rather, their main goal has been the predominance of Sharia rule, if not in the whole of Sudan, then in the North.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] Will al-Bashir accept the results of the forthcoming referendum in the South?

[Hassanein] Don’t forget the new and highly significant factor in these developments: the discovery and production of oil in the South. Al-Bashir and his followers have changed their priorities: from ideology to business, and from the Sharia to oil. They have become largely preoccupied with oil companies, pipelines, refineries, explorations, exports and revenues. Initially, al-Bashir denied the South its fair share of oil revenues. However, after the CPA agreement with the South in 2005, he reluctantly, and because of foreign pressure, accepted a fair share for the South.

Now, as the referendum in the South is getting closer, Al-Bashir is worried more about the oil than about the Sharia. Ninety percent of Sudan’s export revenues are from oil. Without oil, Al-Bashir’s government will be bankrupt; and will eventually disappear, because I believe that an economic fall precedes a political fall.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] What do you think will happen if the South opts to secede?

[Hassanein] Now, before the referendum, al-Bashir is secretly doing all that he can to obstruct the referendum, if not to cancel it. Of course he is now declaring that the referendum will take place on time and that he will accept its results. But don’t believe these people, I know them very well.

There are two possibilities: either the Southerners will choose secession, or, if the referendum is cancelled or if its results are questioned, they will declare unilateral independence (from their parliament in Juba). In both cases, Al-Bashir will declare, on TV in a national address to the nation, that the oil fields are in danger and that Sudan’s national security is at stake. He will then declare that he has ordered the armed forces to take control of the oil fields.

On the other hand, the newly established Southern state will declare that the oil fields are part of its new country, and thus they will be defended. Mind you, this is not just a scenario; this is an actual plan that has been implemented in the South since the 2005 CPA. The Southerners have been busy purchasing tanks, planes, guns and ammunitions. They have known all along that al-Bashir will not let the oil fields go.

[Asharq Al-Awsat] How would you respond to those who say that this is an extremely pessimistic scenario?

[Hassanein] This is what will happen. Not only will there be renewed war in the South, but, also in Darfur, the east and other parts of Sudan.

Sudan is recovering from a decades-long civil war between the regime in Khartoum and Sudanese in the marginalized areas (led by the Sudanese Peoples Liberation Movement). While the Khartoum regime has perpetrated genocide on its citizens in Darfur, it also has failed to implement important elements of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement it signed with the SPLM in January, 2005. The agreement calls for elections in 2010 and 2011 that may change the fate of the entire nation.

One of the unintended consequences of the civil wars has been the creation of a Diaspora community made up of tens of thousands of Sudanese refugees who have been resettled by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in countries such as the United States, Great Britain, Canada and Australia. Having been exposed to the benefits of extended education, western democracy and a free media, many Sudanese in the Diaspora want to bring those benefits home to their struggling countrymen.

“The United States has dedicated a significant amount of financial and humanitarian to Southern Sudan, and my colleagues and I believe that unless we develop men and women who embrace the idea that a leader is one who serves his or her community and strengthens democracy, then we will not realize the outcomes for which the aid was intended,” says the LIONS founder Mangar Gordon Amerdid who is now working in Juba. “Developing leaders is an investment that will have a long term structural effect on how or if Sudan develops into a modern nation state.”

Humanity United (HU) is a foundation focusing on peace building projects and on strengthening indigenous efforts to address recovery from the trauma and deprivation caused by war. HU issued a small grant to LIONS to help launch the first course conducted in December 2009 in partnership with the University of Denver’s prestigious Josef Korbel School of International Studies as well as the upcoming workshop.

The first course assembled participants from the Sudan and the Diaspora. We fervently hope this experience forged ties that will last for years. These relationships form the foundation of the LIONS network. Our aim and commitment is that the second class held in Juba in mid-November 2010 will build on that work and contribute to the formation of leaders committed to serving their communities with long term economic development projects and working at all levels of society in Sudan.

To become involved or lend your support send an email to This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it and visit the web site at www.sudanlions.com

Organization Information

The Leadership Institute of the New Sudan (LIONS) is a 501 c (3) organization with offices in Denver, Colorado and Juba, South Sudan. Its core purpose is to develop and train leaders so that the people of Sudan can experience the virtues of prosperity, civil rights, and social equality. The program focuses on: Leadership, Democracy and Economic Development. Sudanese individuals who are ready to work and serve in communities throughout Sudan and who are willing to make personal sacrifices for the greater good will be prepared to lead in local communities, small business, NGOs, as well as government and institutions. LIONS is supported by individual donations, foundation grants and corporate sponsors. Contributions are tax-deductible.

Contacts: